Interview #179 — Shelley Liu

by James J. Robinson

Shelley Liu is a multi-faceted music industry specialist. She is an artist manager, booking agent and co-founder of Valve Sounds—a record label that specialises in uncovering, nurturing and promoting emerging alternative Hip Hop and RnB talent.

She also DJs at bars, clubs and festivals, a go-to tastemaker when it comes to forward-thinking music and diverse programming, and was recently named on The Music Network’s 30-under-30 list of music industry professionals in Australia.

Shelley spoke to James J. Robinson about cultural diversity in the music industry, making mistakes, and the qualities of a good manager.

You do so much in the music industry in Australia, it can be difficult to pinpoint just one profession!

Yeah, when people first meet me and ask what I do, I keep it vague and just say ‘music industry’, because it can get pretty complicated! To break it down, there’s four areas I work across—I’m an artist manager, a booking agent, and I co-run a record label called Valve Sounds (we’ve been on hiatus for a bit but about to relaunch with an exciting new partnership!) Outside of the music business side of things, I also DJ quite regularly around Melbourne.

Can you tell us a bit more about how you came to work in the music industry?

Throughout primary school and high school I played musical instruments and was in a bunch of orchestras. I was good at it but more textbook good, I didn’t really have the kind of brain that was good on the composing side of things, but just knew that I loved music.

When I was in middle school, I started discovering that there was a whole business side to the music industry with so many different roles behind the scenes, and then when I was in year nine, I did my first work experience placement in music. I loved it—and throughout the rest of high school would go to different workshops to learn more about the industry. I have a distinct memory of sitting at a cafe with my friend after school one day, discussing how cool it would be to be an artist manager one day.

Pretty much as soon as I turned eighteen, I got offered my first paid job in music. That era was wild because I was working 5 days a week—while also doing a full-time university workload—while also partying almost every night. I don’t know how I did it! I was young and very keen to be out and about having fun.

One thing led to another; I started managing and booking artists—and during this time met my business partner Sasha. We work on a few different things together, including a record label called Valve Sounds, parties, live music showcases, and more that we’ll be announcing soon!

The music industry in Australia is definitely doing better at focusing on female talent, and the talent of people of colour. Do you think this diversity is reflected behind the scenes?

In the past couple years, in terms of gender diversity on lineups, people are definitely more open to noticing and calling this out‚ though there is still more room to grow. I don’t think the same amount of progress has been applied to representation of BIPOC artists yet though, but hopefully we can see more change there soon.

When it comes to cultural diversity behind the scenes in the music industry, it’s definitely lacking. To put it simply—the Australian music industry is very white. There are only a handful of BIPOC music industry professionals that I can think of, especially in certain sectors such as the live and touring industry, booking agents... It’s rare for me to be in a room or at an industry event where I’m not the only non-white person.

I’ve found that a lot of music companies pride themselves on having gender diverse staff or rosters, which is obviously also important. But they don’t put this same energy into creating culturally diverse spaces. If companies are approaching issues such as gender equality, they should also be aware, and work towards inclusion of people from all sorts of diverse backgrounds.

What effect do you think it might have if diverse musicians are represented by people who might not share, or understand, their lived experience?

This could lead to tokenism. It’s important to work with a diverse roster of artists, but only do so if you genuinely believe in them, not because you’re trying to just tick a quota box! Otherwise, it’s so unfair on the artist. More often than not, tokenised acts are often forgotten about or pushed in a direction that is completely off track—because the genuine interest and understanding was never there.

I’ve seen industry people put forward some terrible ideas to artists, that have been based purely on stereotypes based on the artist’s skin colour, as opposed to what music that artist is actually making. I’m completely confident that if a white artist was making the exact same music, the same ideas would not have been presented.

If an artist is the only person from a diverse background in a team, they might find themselves constantly having to explain things, which can be a lot of responsibility and be a huge mental strain.

In saying that though, I’m sure that most of the people who are guilty of tokenising probably don’t intentionally mean harm or even realise they’re doing it. I’m a big believer that a lot of the mistakes that get made when it comes to diversity are genuine mistakes due to ignorance, laziness and a lack of education—rather than actual hatred. Everyone is on their own learning journey, and I think a bit of patience goes a long way. But this is why we need more diverse people working behind the scenes!

What have your experiences been like in the industry?

When I was younger, my race and gender wasn’t something I thought about and dissected that much, as I was so used to being the only woman of colour in a room. I went to a predominantly white private school, where I also was one of the very few girls who attended that school (when I was in prep, I was literally the only girl in my year level), so it’s something that I had kind of grown used to. There were for sure times where I did feel a bit ashamed of my cultural background, and wished I was white like everyone else around me. I’d often make calculated decisions on what I’d wear, eat at lunch, talk about, based on what I thought would help me assimilate better. I later realised that this is a common experience for BIPOC kids.

After high school, I developed a lot of new friendships with people from all walks of life. I was naturally drawn towards other first-generation BIPOC friends and bonded with them about how relatable our lives with our immigrant parents were. It was like I had suddenly not felt as alone in my experiences, and I started to embrace my culture a whole lot more and become proud of being Asian. I loved when the Facebook group ‘Subtle Asian Traits’ formed—almost every post I would look at and laugh at how relatable it was.

When it comes to my experiences as a woman of colour in the music industry… I don’t really know where to start, as there’s a lot to unpack; for example, recently I attended a music industry event, and throughout the evening was subject to a white man who I’d just met, constantly saying ‘jokes’ about me being Asian. I think there were about five or so inappropriate stereotyping ‘Asian jokes’ and microaggressions made towards me in under an hour. He was bragging about how he has the ‘best and funniest Asian jokes’. It was wildly uncomfortable considering I’d just met him—plus he was in a senior position in the music industry.

I pulled him up on it and told him his ‘jokes’ were literally not funny at all, and he seemed shocked by me speaking up—which makes me think I’m probably one of the first people who’s ever stood up to him. I feel so sad and sorry for every other Asian person he’s said stuff like this to, who felt that they had to tolerate this behaviour and fake smile it away.

Do you feel you have a support network of peers in similar roles that you can turn to when things get tough?

I’m grateful to have some friends who are also Asian or BIPOC music industry / creatives that I can vent to whenever I need (including you!), as I know they’ll be able to relate to my frustrations. It’s helped me gain more confidence and reassurance that none of us should have to put up with things, like microaggressions, for example.

It’s nice knowing that I’m not alone in my experiences. This is probably one of the reasons why most of the people I work with are from diverse backgrounds. Now that I think of it, there’s actually quite a few artists from Asian backgrounds that I work with, as their manager or booking agent, including Agung Mango, Milan Ring, CLYPSO, Rainbow Chan, Slim Set, Jade Zoe. It was not an intentional decision to have such an Asian-heavy roster, I think it comes back to just being able to relate to one another.

In your more managerial roles, what’s the relationship between you and your artists like? What qualities do you think make a good manager?

Every artist is different and has different needs—- and I have very different relationships with each of them based on what their needs are.

It’s important for a manager to be able to understand their artist. I take a lot of time prior to signing an artist, making sure I understand their vision and that we’re all on the same page, working towards the same goals. You could have the biggest manager in the world, but at the end of the day, if they don’t properly understand what the artist wants to achieve, then that relationship is basically pointless.

It’s equally as important to me to also be able to understand who the artist is as a person. As a manager, having empathy is important; a manager should know their artist’s strengths, weaknesses and insecurities—what they can and can’t handle. The music industry can have such a toll on mental health, and empathy allows me to assess where the boundaries are, and where they should be: for example, when to say no to things on behalf of the artist.

Can it be a lot to have so many people depending on you?

Yeah, for sure. A lot of the time I find myself being too generous with my time and energy—and will push aside any personal problems I’m having in my own life, if someone else I work with is having a crisis that I need to deal with. When you’re always on call to fix things, it can often get really overwhelming.

The one thing that I do dislike about the industry is how ‘24/7’ it is. The line between work life and social life can be very blurred and I’ll often get messages or calls late at night or on weekends from people asking me about work-related things, and there is a sense of expectation to reply instantly. It’s hard to take a sick day, and even when I’m on holidays it’s next to impossible for me to completely switch off and be uncontactable.

Last year’s lockdown was a big wake up call for me. It was the first time in years where I could just sit at home and do nothing. I live by myself, so I’d literally go weeks without seeing another person. As tragic as the pandemic has been, I also really enjoyed having a small break from work. I don’t think I realised that I was even in autopilot mode pre-COVID and was constantly burnt out. Now that things are slowly starting to happen again, I’ve found myself saying no to a lot more things to make sure I’m not overcommitting.

Do you think women of colour need to work harder in this industry to prove themselves? How does that affect your work ethic?

With the music industry being so male and white dominant, I think it is totally understandable for women and BIPOC to feel like they need to work twice as hard to get noticed. If there is a perception that there are not enough seats at the table, then this can lead minorities feeling like they need to fight extra hard to gain or keep a seat.

In the past, I’ve definitely had moments where I felt like I’m not doing ‘enough’ and need to do more in order to make myself feel like I deserve to be here. The silver lining out of this is that it’s helped me develop a really strong work ethic, but I can also thank my immigrant parents for teaching me that too.

I’m sure it can be difficult finding time to focus on yourself with such a busy career. What are some tips you might have for looking after yourself when you’re so busy?

Work can often involve needing to be really social and going to lots of events, so it’s important for me to also just lie on the couch and do nothing, if I don’t need to be anywhere else. I love going on vacation together with you because we’re similar in that we like to just chill and stay low-key!

I love binge watching trashy tv shows and movies, it’s a good form of escapism for me that doesn’t require much brain power. Currently I’m halfway through rewatching Desperate Housewives.

What are some steps companies can take to make sure they’re being authentic in their approach when it comes to ‘diversity’?

Having a diverse team behind the scenes in the workplace who have an input in decision making. If a workplace doesn’t have any employees from a diverse background— they should ask themselves, why not?

Organisations and businesses should hire consultants from diverse backgrounds to help advise on important decisions in order to make sure they’re representative of the entire audience; they should prioritise internship applications from people of diverse backgrounds to encourage the future generations who will one day become leaders. Teams should be offered cultural awareness training, so it doesn’t fall on their single BIPOC colleague to explain things or weather such inquiries. Finally, be consistent in supporting diverse talent—don’t just chuck all the women on a one-night-only ‘all-female lineup’, and then proceed to never book any more women ever again.

Do you have any advice for emerging musicians and people wanting to work in the industry?

Get out there, meet people, develop meaningful relationships. Be kind, genuine, listen to others, help others when you can. Almost every job I’ve ever gotten in music has been through knowing someone already, and vice versa almost every job I’ve ever given someone has been through knowing them already. Relationships are everything in this industry.

What does being Asian-Australian mean to you?

Drawing upon the best of both cultures and incorporating these aspects into everything I do in order to create my own unique approach to life.